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Hello and welcome to the famous
computer cafe where we talk

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about the world of personal computing.

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I'm Andy Velkoff.

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And I'm Michael Walker.

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We've invited a guest here.

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Today's name is Joel Bares, president of
Infocom, the makers Zork One, Two and

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Three, what they call text adventures.

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So we're going to have an opportunity
to hear a little historical perspective

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and where they're going in the future.

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That should be real interesting.

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We're also going to be speaking with
Jack Anderson who's a columnist,

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syndicated columnist out of Washington.

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Some time ago we spoke with him about his
program, the Young Astronauts Program,

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Young Astronauts Council
under the White House Office

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of Private Sector Initiatives.

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We've had some requests to hear that again so

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we're going to be replaying
our interview with Jack.

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We want to also let you know about the
Blue Plate specials at the warehouse.

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This week they're featuring Memorex Discats.

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Prices are unbeatable.

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Their prices are always anywhere
from 40 to 80 percent cheaper

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than you can find anywhere in town.

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So when you go in there let them
know you heard about it here

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at the famous computer cafe.

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So stay tuned, relax and we'll be
right back after this message.

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Well hi, we're here in the telephone
corner and we have on the line with us

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syndicated columnist Jack
Anderson from Washington.

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Jack how are you?

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I'm fine Andy.

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Welcome to the famous computer cafe.

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Jack, you know we were talking about the
Young Astronauts Program and I know that

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that's a program which is out of the
White House Office of Private Sector

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Initiatives that you are very involved
in as an effort to get kids involved in

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technology and in computers
which we're real interested

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in here at the famous computer cafe.

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How did the whole thing get started?

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The whole thing got started as an
answer to the high tech challenge.

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The Soviets, the Germans, the Japanese are
way ahead of us in graduating students

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who are proficient in math and science
and there's real danger that we could

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lose our lead in high tech.

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And so as a catalyst to get the kids
excited about it and to get them interested

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in it again we've adopted the
Young Astronauts Program.

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It began with a ceremony on the
White House lawn three months ago.

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Already we have 7,000 chapters,
about 300,000 kids.

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The way that we're growing we should have
by next September at least 2 million.

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We expect to have maybe more than that
because we may open it up to individuals.

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Well wow,
you may be a little bit modest here but it was

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really your idea wasn't it?

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Yes, I proposed it to the president.

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We sat together in the Oval Office
talking about the problem and I

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threw out this idea.

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The government studied it for about one
year and then he called me on the phone

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and said hey we're ready
to implement your idea.

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And he asked me to be the chairman.

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Well I know this really encompasses a
whole broad spectrum of things in science

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and technology and what not but I also
know that kids in the program are going to

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be encouraged to use personal
computers in accessing databases.

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Can you tell me something about that?

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Yeah, not only the kids but the schools.

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One of our goals will be to encourage
the schools to get up to date.

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To encourage them to adopt
the latest technology.

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To encourage them to teach the
children the latest technology.

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We're going to do this by many ways
of stimulation by offering them

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good deals in high-tech equipment,
by sending instruction in high-tech,

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by reducing high-tech
information down to the language

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that children can understand.

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We have a highly ambitious program that

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is still in the works.

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After all we've only been in
existence for three months.

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Let me ask you Jack, as between the
teachers and the kids, who's more

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enthusiastic about the program?

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Actually, of course before we started
it we talked to all the teacher groups.

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As a matter of fact they're
very excited about it.

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The NEA and all its various affiliations,
the science teachers, the principals.

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We've got a lot of excitement about it.

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They all recognize that space is the
number one fascination for our youngsters

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and we're starting a number of programs.

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We'll have a space watch this year.

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It's the year of the Halley's
Comet and other phenomenal space.

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We're going to have a space watch
keeping track of what goes on up there.

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We're going to have almost certainly,
this hasn't been finalized, but almost

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certainly we'll have an exchange of
visits between young cosmonauts in

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Russia, young astronauts in this country.

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It's a forerunner hopefully of Détente.

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Let's toast to a real favorable result
and piece through technology at least.

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Jack, I want to thank you for joining
us here at the Famous Computer Cafe.

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We wish you lots of luck with the program.

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Is there a way that folks can get in touch
with the program and if they want to

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join, if there's a teacher
out there or maybe students

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out there who want more information?

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I have an address here, but what's

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the best one that you know
to get in touch with?

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The address you have, 1015 15th Street,
Northwest Washington DC,

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is the best address,
but we're in touch with all the schools.

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This applies I should say only to
junior high and elementary schools.

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We're taking kids from ages 6 to 16.

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That corresponds with about what
the young cosmonauts program

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is doing in the Soviet Union.

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So you probably, if you want to get in
touch with someone, you might just contact

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your school and they probably already know.

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If they don't contact us directly.

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Okay, Jack Anderson, syndicated columnist
and I guess chairperson of the Young

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Astronauts Council,
thanks very much for joining

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us here at the Famous Computer Cafe.

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Thanks for inviting me.

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Take care.

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Bye bye.

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Well, great, great.

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This is Michael Walker and we're here at
the Famous Computer Cafe with Joe Perez.

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He's the president of Infocom and I
think for many of you who are into text

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adventures in the Zork trilogy,
this is probably one of the most prominent

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individuals who really helped us
get this whole new world happening.

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I want to welcome you here to the cafe.

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It's good to see you.

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Thank you.

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It's nice to be here.

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Okay, give us a little historical perspective.

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I mean, a product like Zork 123
just doesn't appear overnight and

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historically speaking, I guess this really
came from the mainframe environment,

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MIT and all that kind of stuff, right?

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Yes, this did.

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In fact, the original people who founded
Infocom were a group of computer experts

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from the Laboratory for
Computer Science of MIT.

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I guess, you know, my sense of it is that
it really kind of happened as a result

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of people wanting to play games.

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Can you give me an understanding
of how that worked out?

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It wasn't quite that.

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Zork was created by people who like to
play games and also like to read books.

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They read all kinds of things.

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But the original Zork was created as a
reaction to a game that appeared in 1977

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on mainframe computers called Adventure.

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In fact, the whole category,
Adventure Games, was named

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after that one product, Adventure.

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Okay, got it.

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And then you guys created, from what you
learned from the Adventure games, you

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guys created Zork and then one,
two, and three, the trilogy.

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Right.

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Our people always felt that we could
do things better than the next guy.

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And we loved to play Adventure,
but thought that we could go beyond that.

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We had computer development expertise
that we thought could make the game much

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easier to use, much more natural.

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And also, our experience in reading

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mythological books and all kinds of other
things made us feel that we could make

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the story more interesting
than Adventure had been.

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Well, it seems to me like, talking a
little earlier, you have a philosophy on

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this idea of what people and computers,
that interaction is really all about.

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Can you expound on that a little?

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One of the things that we've always felt
is that when you're interacting with a

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computer, you shouldn't have to
worry about how the computer works.

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It should be as natural as possible.

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So when you play an info-com game,
you type plain English

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sentences, nouns, verbs, adverbs.

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Even if you don't understand the parts of
speech, the computer understands them.

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And you don't have to think about typing

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strange commands or anything of that sort.

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You tell the computer what you want to do,
and it tells you what happens.

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It's very straightforward.

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So a person wouldn't have to become a
computer programmer to really understand

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how to use an info-com game.

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No, and in fact,
that's true of a great deal of software.

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You really don't have to
understand how to program the

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computer yourself to be able to use it.

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You don't have to be able to
build a car to be able to drive.

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You guys have a lot of different
software packages out there.

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Can you tell me some of the different
names and some of the areas

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in which you guys specialize?

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Well, we call the category now interactive
fiction instead of adventure games, as

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it has been called, because we consider
interactive fiction more descriptive.

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They're very much like books
where you're the main character.

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Our categories of games are similar
to the categories of books.

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We have fantasy games,
the Zork trilogy, Enchanter, Sorcerer.

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We have mystery games, Deadline,
Witness, and a new one, Suspect.

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And we have science fiction
and Tales of Adventure.

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You kind of passed over Suspect a little bit.

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What's Suspect about?

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I'll get to that in a
moment now that you asked.

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Deadline was our first one.

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Deadline is a classic mystery
where you are the detective.

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Instead of reading what the detective does,
you're

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the one who has to make the decisions yourself.

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Somebody's been murdered or you think it
might be murder, and you have 12 hours

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to figure out whether it was murder or
not to figure out who did it, to find

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the evidence, and to convict him.

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In Suspect, we turn the whole thing around.

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You go to a fancy costume party,
and at the party, while you're standing around

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having good time, the hostess is murdered.

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And it turns out you're the prime suspect.

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So you have a certain amount of time to
prove to the police that you didn't do it

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and probably to figure out who did do it.

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Otherwise they'll take you off to jail.

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Wow,
and all this is happening in the computer game.

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I mean, it like pulls she in.

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We'll be right back.

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This is Michael Walker here at the
famous Computer Cafe with Joe Barraz.

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Okay, we're taking it.

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We're back.

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This is Michael Walker here
with Joe Barraz from Infocom.

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We've been talking about this idea of
people getting involved in these games.

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I know that when you get into a text adventure,
it's

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like an all-in-thralling process.

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You just really get in there
trying to find your way around and

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trying to figure out things.

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What kind of...

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Andy brought the question up,
and I'm going to ask it myself.

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What kind of communique have you gotten
from people out there as they try to

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figure out what's going on?

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Oh, we have people who've been
spending years trying to solve Zork.

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One of the things that's extremely
involving about this is that

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you feel like you're the character.

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You get into the story, but in the story
there are puzzles presented to you.

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You've got to figure out how to get around the

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troll, for example, that's blocking your path.

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You've got to solve all those
problems to get to the very end.

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What we find is that people
will spend hours and hours.

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They'll stay up all night, forget to sleep,
forget to eat, just because they're

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so involved in the story, but they've
gotten to a point where they're not quite

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sure how to solve a particular puzzle.

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Now, fortunately, one of the things you
can do in these stories is go on to solve

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a different puzzle if you get stuck somewhere.

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In fact, a very good way to play the
game is if you really get stuck,

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put it away for a week.

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Your mind works in the background while
you're thinking about other things.

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In fact, you're spending a lot of your
time thinking about this particular

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puzzle, and then suddenly one day you'll
wake up and the solution will hit you.

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You can always save where you are in
the games and come back to it later, so

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you don't have to play it all in one sitting.

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You can play it over a period
of months or even years.

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Would you consider the game educational?

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We've avoided calling the games educational
because we haven't deliberately put

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any specific educational objectives into them,
but I will tell you that they are

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used in some schools and by parents
because they tend to enhance

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your problem-solving ability.

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And for younger people who may be having
trouble reading, it's a much more

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interesting way to learn how to
read than just being taught.

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Having had an opportunity to play some
of the games, I find them sometimes

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frustrating because I get stuck.

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And when I get stuck, I have this sense

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that I don't want to sit there any longer.

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Do you have any way for people who get
stuck on some of these games to kind of

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ask an expert,
do you have local experts that they

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can call or something like that?

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Well, let me say one thing about getting stuck.

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A very important element
of these games is humor.

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If you got stuck and nothing happened,
you could get frustrated very easily.

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But in fact,
we encourage you to try all sorts of peculiar

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things to get around the problem.

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And you may not get anywhere,
but you often get humorous responses.

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Those sometimes get me even more frustrated,
but you're right.

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And there's also a certain element of
sarcasm that's built into all of our games

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that people tend to appreciate.

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It grows on you after a while.

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For example, I was playing a game the other
day where I was outside a house and I

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wanted to find something that was near it.

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So I said, walk around the house.

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It said, which way do you want to go?

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I said, I don't know.

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And it said, I didn't think so.

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Good enough,
even though it wasn't particularly useful.

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You're right.

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You're right.

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Let's kind of move to a direction
that I've seen with your products.

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You guys have products on the Apple computer,
right?

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And IBM, can you play it on the IBM?

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And you also have it for Commodore.

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What other machines can
you get your products for?

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And Atari and Macintosh.

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And in fact, our products run on more
than 20 machines, virtually every major

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computer that has a disk drive.

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Let me ask you, how about the area of,
I've noticed that the show, CS show, MSX

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has announced its entrance into the marketplace

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just to kind of get a sense of things.

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And you guys have some
products on the MSX system.

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That's a Japanese-based system
and you guys have software there.

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Why?

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It's our philosophy to support
every kind of computer.

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So no matter what you happen to buy,
you can always play our games.

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Do you feel that the MSX system will have
a prominence here in the United States

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that would really have a
lot of people being able to

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play your games on those kind of computers?

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Yes, I feel that the MSX computers is viable.

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There are not very many home computers
still on the market with TI and Coleco

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and some of the others leaving the marketplace.

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So I think there is room for a
quality product from the Japanese.

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Well, now, the Software Publishers Association,

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let's talk a little bit about that.

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What's that organization really all about?

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It's an association of the people
who create and market the software.

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And like any other industry association,
the object is to further the interests

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of the industry, to develop the industry.

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And there are all kinds of different
things that we do in that area, such as

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educational.

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We work on legislation.

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Do you guys concern yourselves a lot with,
I know for software, oftentimes, a big

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concern is piracy and people stealing
software and things like that.

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Do you concern yourself with that kind
of thing, and in terms of educating

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business as well as consumers?

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Yes, we do.

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One of the major problems facing the
industry is software piracy, because if a

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publisher, if a developer cannot get a
fair return on his investment, he can't

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afford to create more quality products.

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Part of that, part of the goal is to
educate the public that piracy is wrong and

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that it does hurt them in the long
run and not just the manufacturers.

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Hurt them in ways where the software will
be more expensive, maybe they might not

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even get the same quality products
because some of the companies

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might not be able to stay in business, right?

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Right.

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There are many companies that are going
out of business because they're unable to

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sell enough product to fund themselves
and to allow them to produce more and

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piracy makes it that much more
likely that they won't make it.

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Well, we'll take a break and just kind
of wrap things up with really where you

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see things going with the software
market and the future of software and

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here, Japan, wherever.

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We'll be right back.

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This is Michael Walker at
the Famous Computer Cafe.

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This is Michael Walker and we're back here.

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We're going to wrap things up with Joel Perez.

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The difference between arcade games and
interactive fiction, what would you

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really say is the primary difference
when we talk about game software?

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When you play an arcade game,
you get immediate feedback.

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You get that hand-eye coordination and
it's kind of a fun experience for a while,

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but you don't put much thinking
into it and as a result, you

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tend to get bored with it rather quickly.

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Interactive fiction requires you to
get much more involved in the story.

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You've got to figure out what to
do or the story never progresses.

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You put more time into it,
but you find in the long run you get much more

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out of it, much richer experience.

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Where would you say that you're really
seeing the future of all this going?

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00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:39,000
I mean, are we going to start seeing
interactive software with more

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visuals, less visuals?

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How do you feel about it?

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Funny, you should say that.

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We've found that although we have no pictures,
no graphics at all in our stories,

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that actually enhances the experience
because your imagination is better than the

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kinds of graphics you can
get on a computer screen.

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00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:06,000
Would you say that the health of
the future of software is really

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00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,000
growing now or where would you
say things are these days?

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00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,000
Yes, I would say the industry is getting
healthier because while in recent years

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many people were buying computers just
because their neighbors had them, more as

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00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,001
a fad, now the industry in general is getting,
the consumer

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00:22:26,001 --> 00:22:28,000
in general is getting more sophisticated.

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00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,000
Well, Jill, this has really been very
fascinating and we want to thank you for

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00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,001
being here at the famous Computer Cafe.

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00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,001
We'll be back right after this, guys.

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00:23:18,001 --> 00:23:22,000
Well, we want to thank our guests that
have made this show so special today.

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00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,001
Mr. Joel Burez, president of Infocom.

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00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,001
Syndicated columnist Jack Anderson.

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00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,001
Rick Burnett, our technical engineer.

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00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,001
And Michael Welch,
the composer of our theme music.

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00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,001
And most of all, we want to thank you,
the friends of the famous Computer Cafe

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00:23:34,001 --> 00:23:37,000
because without you there's
really no reason to do

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00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,001
this but you've been so fantastic.

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00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,000
We just want to say thanks once again.

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00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:47,000
Remember we're here every day here on 93.
5 KFOX at 9am and again at 6pm.

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00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,001
So, the executive producers,
Michael Walker, Andrew Velka

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00:23:52,001 --> 00:23:55,000
and Ellen Walker.

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00:23:55,001 --> 00:23:59,001
We'd also like to remind you that all this
week the special at the warehouse, the

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00:23:59,001 --> 00:24:02,000
Blue Blade special is Memorex Discats.

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00:24:02,001 --> 00:24:06,000
So when you go in, mention you heard about
it here at the famous Computer Cafe.

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00:24:06,001 --> 00:24:08,001
So drive safely and enjoy your PC.